A brave soul was willing to comment on my last post. I think this conversation is important, and so I wanted to carry on with a new post. Read the quote by "Anonymous" on my last post to understand the context.
My Reply to Anonymous
Thanks for having the guts to bring a little debate to the table! I was beginning to wonder if I wasn't being "prophetic" enough. You have posted on my page, and have thereby opened yourself to be disagreed with. Before I say anything else, however, I wanted to acknowledge and celebrate the fact that you are my brother/sister? in Christ.
Moving into the argument, I wanted to second what you say about the fact that "everything is God's;" amen. While I haven't specifically studied debt in the Bible, you are probably correct in your assessment that Biblical writers had a negative attitude towards debt. I also have a negative attitude towards debt, but I doubt it is for the same reasons. We need to remember that 2000+ years ago "debt" was a bit of a different animal. Imagine approaching a bank today after 7 years and asking for your loan to be forgiven!
My personal stance on modern debt is that if you live in the United States of America, the economy is structured such that in order to do things like own a house or a car, unless you have inherited money or saved every penny you've made since you were 15, you need to take out a loan. Regarding consumer debt, on the other hand, I think that it is equivalent to gluttony. I personally have a small amount of consumer debt because I bought a computer and plane tickets to visit my wife's family in Albania. I hate this debt and can't wait to get rid of it -- it makes me feel dirty.
Whether or not you choose to "profit off of or support companies that are in the 'sin' business" I believe is a matter of conscience. For instance, I personally have no qualms with purchasing wine to take over to a dinner. I do believe, however, that taking an extreme stance (like one where you feel guilty for going to a grocery store) is probably unhealthy.
If the wealthy stopped buying yachts and gave away the money instead, strange things would start happening to the economy. A lot of economists would raise red flags and investors would probably pull out. In fact, we would probably have a kind of melt down. We would probably have to say goodbye to the United States as we know it today. When you come to a fork in the road and take the wrong path, sometimes you have to turn around and go in the opposite direction for awhile before you can begin in the right direction. If our country is fueled by gluttony, greed, and the oppression of the poor, then maybe it's time for a change.
I think it's time for being a Christian to become a bit more revolutionary. I don't mean that we use violence to change society (one or two Liberation Theologists made this mistake). I personally don't like the idea of using politics to change society. What I would like to see is a group of people dedicated to bearing the cross of discipleship. Two of Mohandas Ghandi's quotes to chew on:
"It is my firm opinion that [the West] does not represent the spirit of God or Christianity but the spirit of Satan. And Satan's successes are the greatest when he appears with the name of God on his lips."
"I consider western Christianity in its practical working a negation of Christ's Christianity."
Stumbling Prophet II
Tuesday, July 18, 2006
Tuesday, July 18, 2006
19 Comments:
Great discussion. I want in.
I too think debt is bad, but it is how I went to school. It was either debt or no school. I chose debt for school. Tough choice that will haunt me for a long time. And I do not own a home, but I am paying off a vehicle too.
With that confession out of the way, I say again, debt is bad. Thus I give money rather than loan it.
I am sensitive to a number of things anonymous has to say. I think Christians should think through where they shop etc on moral grounds, but like Tarpley, I don't have a problem with wine. Rather, I have a problem bying a cheap shirt at the dollar store that is made in China by a little slave girl who works in piss poor conditions with a boss who totes a machine gun watching her work for money she will never see. And, by the way, I have a closet full of said shirts that saved me a bundle so that I could pay off my school loans and my truck. Not wise/not too Christian. But I did it.
Then I read a book called Colossians Remixed that really convicted me. It's true, I really don't need most of the junk I am captivated by as I walk through Wal-mart. So much stuff there is made in China or some other worker oppressed region, and they have a beautiful young blonde chomping on her chewing gum, sitting at a card table, ready to offer me a walmart card so I can buy a plasma screen TV for only $4000! so that I can come home and hook it up to my cable to watch a bunch of smut in the privacy of my home.
yeah, as a Christian, I have a lot of rethinking to do. I have some new actions to take. My few measily bucks go out into the world and shape it in ways neither God nor I like. God is dealing with me too -anonymous. I am behind the curve in a lot of respects. And I will get it wrong as I explore my options, but I will keep exploring them and seeking God's leading, and He will be gracious with me as I do it. But you are right to speak deep conviction on the issue. Thanks.
However, I really do not view the bible as an owners manual or love letter. I only mention that because I suspect it will have bearing on future comments. I view it as a 5 act play instead. And the fifth act is not entirely written. The final scenes must be improvised. Like as if some dedicated play actors found an unfinished script written by Shakespear. They put the play on with out the closing scenes and improvise. They can only do so after reading and studying Shakespear very carefully and learning every move and rythm within the first 4 acts of the unfinished play very well. And even still, though the play be a work of art, a beauty to behold, the improv part will likely have stumbles and fits and starts. But that is the way life in God's world is for us as Christians.
And like Tarpley says, I think if we read the first 4 acts more closely, we will discover that the play is far more revolutionary than we have made it out as of late.
Thus, though I am not entirely in agreement with either of you, I see that there is room here for all 3 opinions, and that each of us stand to unlearn, learn and even teach each other along the way as we move forward past where the script leaves off.
Many blessings...
O yeah, one more thing...
Tarpley,
I am particularly glad to see you refrence the cross in your post. I have been in some very respectable blog discussions with good friends of mine lately where that exact theme has been glaringly missing. It is amazing how that just speaking of it can be so tough, much less picking up our own and following Jesus with His.
Talk is one thing, action another. And we can't hardly even talk the talk.
So, bravo to you, my brutha.
Good post.
Welcome back Bryan, and glad to see Mike here posting from the heart. Mike and I frequent Bren Hughes blog - Piercing the Membrane.
As I noted to a Sunday morning class this past week - the church all too often has become a "vendor of religious goods and services" - and has been yoked with consumer capitalism to the nth degree. The church is only adding to the problem right not and this is a church problem the church is going to have to face head on in the next 5 to 20 years.
On the issue of debt - some debt can be used for good. Who knows, maybe the wise servant used debt to double his talents. Debt can be a blessing if used prudently. However, I'd ballpark a guess that debt is abused 95+% of the time. It gets back to the issue of the heart - and greed, gluttony and idolatry are simply more rampant in the church than we admit.
Kent,
I agree with you about how it is a church problem. Unfortunately, I don't think that churches are going to be capable of addressing the issue until their ministry budget is larger than their building budget.
I was using the grocery store and an example of how different opinions can be when it comes to limits. I do not believe there should be limits on what ANYONE, even Christians, should own. Be it a 7000 sq. ft. home or three vacation properties around the world. Need? No, I don't think anybody needs these things to stay alive, but if they have the money to do it and it represents a small amount of their net worth...why not?
Having an extreme amount of wealth is fine. Money is amoral. Neither good nor bad. It exemplifies your charachter. If your a kind giving person, you'll be a larger kind and giving person. If your a selfish hateful person, you'll just be a bigger one of those.
As far as debt goes, there is no NEED for it. You can buy a car without it. A $1000 will last a while. What you'd pay in a car payment (avg. $400 today) can be saved monthly. In a few months, you could move up to a paid for car worth $5000. I know many people who've used this cash method. It can be done and don't talk about safety or reliability. I'll pencil whip you on that with real numbers. A car requires NO debt.
As far as a house goes. Same thing. It is not a fact that you have to borrow for it. Example, two 23 yr. olds get married. Household income of $70K. They drive paid for cars (beaters). They live in a garage apt and cut the owners grass to help offset rent. They save (after taxes) about 35K a year. Don't tell me it can't be done. Four years later, they've got 150K in the bank. Sure, no vacations and Christmas gifts were crafts. BUT, they're DEBT FREE and can write a check for a $120,000 home with money left over and still have they're income. Hey, I've got a mortgage! I'm not being hypocritical. What I'm saying is it's not a FACT that you HAVE to use debt as a tool.
Debt is not evil. But neither is being in the top 5% of income earners and enjoying the fruits of your labor. Keep in mind...the majority of millionaires are 1st generation wealthy. They are self made and do it honestly and leagally. In the house of the wise are choice foods and oils, right? Besides, if they're good people, they're probably giving more than you or I earn anyway. And they don't take away from the pie....they make it bigger.
I feel as though I'm rambling now. Sorry, but I love discussing this.
Anyway, I'm only anonymous because I've yet to sign up. My girlfriend has a blog that I read and I did a search for authors with the name Tarpley and came across this one. My name is Troy Tarpley and I was just goofing off.
I'll check back again soon.
Be well,
tt
I'm enjoying reading this discussion...Sarah and I were in a class Sunday morning and it was like "don't trust money, trust God". Then we spent the next 45 minutes talking about how to save enough money that we'll never have to trust God again.
two very meaningful reads for me re: this topic have been Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger by Ronald J. Sider (Word Publishing) and Freedom of Simplicity by Richard J. Foster (Harper Collins)... not that I have been good about living out their teachings, which are the teachings of Christ.
Troy,
Nice last name! Any relation to John and Sandra Tarpley from Texas? I admire your financial skills. I wish I had been more intentional/creative in my finances from an earlier age. This statement of yours I think sums up your stance: "[there is nothing wrong with] being in the top 5% of income earners and enjoying the fruits of your labor." I agree with that statement 50%. There is absolutely nothing wrong with making tons of money. If God has given you the gift of money making, then it would be wrong to neglect it! If we lived in a perfect world where everyone was given an equal opportunity to make money, then I would also have no problems "enjoying the fruits of my labor."
What complicates the issue, however, is two things: 1) We do not live in a perfect world. There are people in Darfur who could work as hard as possible their entire lives and never reach the U.S. poverty line. 2) God has commanded us to give to the poor. There is a desire close to the heart of God to provide for those in need.
We as disciples, in our quest to bring our desires and our will in alignment with His, must also adopt this desire to provide for those in need. It is not a question of "how much money do I need" but rather "how much money can I give."
In my view, being rich, per se, is no sin. However, I suspect that if making, saving and handling money legally and morally is a strength for you, then you have a calling to be a shepherd in your community in the arena of finances.
I would offer as similar opinion over many areas of life. If you are a physically fit type, you should offer shepherding to your community with that.
We are all sheep after a fashion. Most of us, especially in our modern western world, have a specialized field of expertise as well. We should use those strengths to compliment each others' weaknesses. And we should seek such shepherds with our weaknesses as well.
God's coming judgment and kingdom is a holistic all encompassing communal thing. It is not merely for individuals, but for communities. "Shepherds feed the sheep" is the issue of Ezekiel 34, much of Amos, Isaiah, etc, and the especially the closing thoughts in John's gospel.
I am thinking myriad thoughts on what that would look like in various settings that currently no one even discusses, much less does.
Troy has some good thoughts for us. Thanks for sharing.
Many blessings...
Your right, we don't live in a perfect world. But that should not prevent you from enjoying "the fuits of your labor or having a problem with others enjoying theirs".
I don't think the issue is complicated by those that can work forever and never reach the poverty level of the U.S. The issue is still simple. We should not feel guilty for things we can not control and we can not control every governments economic climate. And God has said to help the poor, but has not said to give money. We are told to tithe (tithe means tenth) and we're told to give to our church. He tells us to give, not because he needs it. He's God, he'll take it if he wants. He tells us to give to make us more like him. He wants us to be givers, but he wants everyone that can, to work. You know "kill something and drag it home". I know those in many countries don't have control of their lives, much less their economic situation. BUT, we should not feel guilty (guilt is a feeling you get when you've done something wrong) nor should we feel obligated to throw money at a situation that may not get any better regardless. We can give to our church and hope that they use it to help support mission work in other countries and we can vote for officials that will offer counsel and assistance in forms other than cash. Like the old saying, "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime.". As far as people in the States go, this IS true for us. "There's not room for everyone at the top, but there IS room for anyone". Not my quote, but I love it. So, I say Spend, Save and Give...and be DEBT FREE!
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Reading this puts one thing in my mind. It has nothing to do with wealth ;it has everthing to do with your heart.
"No servant can serve two masters" Lk. 16:13 Jesus asked the rich young man to sell everything and give it to the poor.(Matt. 19:16-30)
What master are you serving??? Yes, I know it's not as black and white as poor people are ushured to the front of the pearly gates and rich people are sent away.
The more you own, the more you are owned. Is this what Jesus meant? Are the top 5% owned by there possessions? Are we as middle class own by our possessions?
Just thoughts from a redneck.
jesus was a redneck?
just kidding scott. thanks for chiming in! i agree with your sentiment about "the more you own, the more you are owned." i think there is a way to be in the top 5% income earners but not own so much junk.
I don't believe "the more you own, the more you are owned" premise. That's too general. I know of many several deca-millionaires that have tons of stuff. I can name two immediately that have done more and continue to do more with their wealth for the good of society and Christians in general. The two I'm refering to, lead their companies with Christian principles and give more than the standard tithe (10% of first fruits). That's more than most Christians can say considering most Christians don't tithe. The may give offering, but the majority don't give 10% and it has nothing to do with income.
The more you own, the more you own. The more you CHOOSE to be owned, the more you are owned.
Oh, and God does not tell us to sell everything and give it to the poor. He expects us to be good stewards with our money by saving, investing and giving. A broke Christian is in no position to be of any help to others with regards to money. Remember, in Jesus' time oils were a commodity used the way we use dollars today. As too way food. And the Bible says, "In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil,
but a foolish man devours all he has."
Oh, I forgot to mention the two deca-millinaire Christians from the beginning of my post. The first is Truett Cathy, founder of Chick-fil-A restaurants. The second is Dave Ramsey, financial counselor, author and radio host. These are just two of many Christians that are doing more than their tenth of first fruits, while many more Christians that don't do near a tenth want to point fingers and complain about what material things these people may enjoy. Troy Tarpley
Troy,
From my vantage ground, you have made some knifty statements, but not a case. Please elaborate.
Brian made the knifty statement about the more stuff you own, the more your stuff owns you. I was gelling with it at first, but then you crossed it with another knifty statement about choosing to be owned.
I was only marginally with Brian before you nullified it, but now I just have two knifty statements that cancel each other out rather than a clear argument for one way or the other. And I am inclined to believe that Brian's carries the day, but he did not make a case either, so this is your chance to change my mind.
However, you have an uphill course to convince me. As I see it, these are the things that you must address along the way for me to go with you instead of Brian: First off, I think that our culture is intoxicated with "stuff". As a participant in our culture, I am bombarded with messages and temptations that intice me to aquire more stuff. I have friends and family who look down on me and socially sanction me in small and large ways because I dont have enough in their estimations. I encounter advertising for more stuff in myriads of places and ways too extensive to recount that play on my sense of logic and emotion, be they frivolous or worthwhile.
And while I understand a solid logic to choice, I also understand that all of us find some choices to be viscerally difficult. Eating right, excercising, stopping smoking, all are simple choices and yet notoriously difficult for millions of people. And in a culture that is constantly working against good choices, this is not as simple as it sounds. I figure there are some areas of your life where this is true as well.
The other thing is this: you said "God does not tell us to sell everything and give it to the poor." I'm sorry to be a stickler there, but that definitely needs explaining. Jesus specifically tells the rich man to do just that. You may still have a case, but not without a bit of exegesis. And then there is the fact that the early church in ACTS sold everything and gave it to the church. These instances beg to be dealt with when making statements as you have made.
But lastly, and for me most important, Jesus makes the most incredible demand of his disciples that they are to pick up their crosses and follow him. Lukes account (I think it is (no Bible in front of me just now))goes on to say that any who dont are not His disciples.
Cross carrying is not a way of life, per se; it is a way of death. Amassing fortune does not jive well with cross carrying -and especially not in our culture.
I have not pitted the two against each other diametrically here; I actually have left room for the two to coexist with in a person, but it seems most unlikely. It is like the statement by Jesus that it is easier to go thru the eye of a needle than for a rich person to get into the Kingdom of Heaven. He did not slam the door shut on it, but sure leaves little hope for the rich in that way.
So, it sounds to me like you are suggesting that the exception is the rule. Otherwise, I do not follow your meaning at all. And if you are claiming the exception is the rule, I disagree. I think it is possible, but not likely. And I think the sins of our rich culture need to be addressed by the church. And I do not mean finding ways to be Christian Rich. I mean cross-carrying ways to be Christian. I hear a lot of the former on TV etc, and practically none of the latter anywhere.
But we started our discussion talking about debt. And you said it is bad, plain and simple. I am inclined to agree. However that is, in my estimation, a one dimensional look at a 3 dimensional issue too. And it is, or at least was, the heart of the discussion really.
Look forward to your response...
Many blessings....
Geeeez. I have to admit I'm no mental heavyweight nor am I a very good debater. Too follow that up, I'm not even a very devout Christian. I am however a believer that most people have a good heart and want to do the right thing. The fact that you've pointed out is clear to me. We are grotesquely marketed to from every source possible. I'm sad to announce the Parker Brothers has just "inked" a deal with Visa to replace the funny money we've all used over our lifetimes with fake credit cards. It's a very sad marketing ploy, though I have to admit genius. It makes me sick.
Your right too about the cute little quotes and my play on Brian's words. I'm saying...or trying to....that stuff is not bad. All the stuff in the world is just stuff. Kind of like words. No bad words, just bad context. It's what's in our hearts. If I call you a "kokyflicker" (just made it up)it doesn't mean a thing unless I mean it to be. I'm getting of track, I know. I don't think stuff is bad. The amount that any one person should have is a matter of opinion. Some can afford more (like yourself), but choose to have little. Others may choose to have more. Neither is bad. You can give more of your money in lieu of buying more. Others can buy more, which helps the economy by employing people. We need all the consumers to have the things in life we enjoy today. It's simple....very simple economics.
In all, I'm not trying to change your mind or the world. Just thought I'd put my two cents in. Anyway, like politics, beating the same subject to death gets boring. In fact, I'm starting to bore myself, so I'll leave you guys to finish this.
Enjoyed it and hope you have to.
Troy
Troy,
Thanks for hangin' with me in this. I actually hope you will come back. Your comments kicked the whole discussion into gear. And I have no ambition to bore you, or over intensify the discussion. But Christian living is an intense thing with me. And so is debt and greed. So this is how I engage...
Actually, I have some more thoughts on debt. I am thinking of how in Matthew, Jesus delivers a famous sermon on the mount. The place is significant for a couple of huge reasons: The mount functions as a New Mt Sinai where a New Law is given and a New People of God formed around it; And mountains are where the rebels hide out, so that is likely the crowd Jesus was preaching to.
In the course of that sermon, Jesus teaches the rebels how to pray. And an early verse in that prayer says: Forgive us our debts as we forgive those with debts against us. Think of how that sounds in the ears of revolutionary types...
Revolutionaries all through history, and certainly first-century Israel, very literally see there movements as "starting the world over again." Bar Kochba, the famous Jewish rebel that died defending Massada, had coins minted with the year zero printed on them. Even the French Revolution developed a new godless calendar, though it did not last either. And the Catholic Church gave us our standard calendar which attempted, and came very close, to comemorate the birth of Jesus as year one -a very old but pervasive revolution indeed.
Anyway, point being, revolutionaries are into wiping the slate clean -so to speak. And as is typical of most revolutions, when the mob/army gets roaring, one of their first stops on the campaign is down at the local hall of records. And they burn it down!
Jesus is a revolutionary revolutionary. He is not merely a revolutionary. That would be a grave mistake to say so. But He is more than revolutionary, and He definately reaches out to revelutionaries. And the prayer He teaches us to pray is of forgiving debt!
The whole argument that people need to buy more stuff so that the economy will be up is a Republican scam. Just after 9/11 we were told we had a patriotic duty to buy stuff and keep the economy going. What a crock! Not in the Creator God's Good Creation. Actually, the opposite is exactly true while this line of BS is terribly false. Who wants to live in an economy anyway? Economy, at least as we know it, is all about pumping up the volume so the players can take a slice of the cake.
Imagine a world where everyone gave everything away! Would there be want? No, because more had been given than taken.
That may not sound like a good motivator but it is a stark choice, as we discussed before, and it is the way the Creator designed His Creation to work. So, if you want to remain in His Good Creation, you should take His design and plan for it seriously even if it does not jive well with the dinky plans the fallen humans have for it.
So, I am with you on the primary case against debt. However, I think even that is a far bigger and richer deal than has thus far been made out. And I have only scratched the surface here.
Many blessings....
B,
I have found your recent prophet blogs interesting, maybe a little more than I normally would because we just bought a house. And we have a mortgage.
Anyways, I don't know if this has been discussed yet (I read your blog entries but, honestly, not all the comments), but I would like to bring up something you mentioned in Prophet I:
"Does He want us to be happy, healthy, and wealthy? Sure."
I'm not sure God does want these things for us. I think God wants more than anything for us to have a relationship with Him; for us to love Him and want to learn about Him, know Him better, and trust Him. I'm not sure that being happy, healthy, and wealthy necessarily contribute to these things.
I'm fairly certain you don't agree with the TV evangelists who say that God is there to "bless your life" with lots of money and happiness - but do you think that He wants these things for us at all?
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